This country deserves more than material wealth ------ A debate

Amir Parviz (for a secular Monarchy in Iran)

I find too many Iranians living in the west are solely influenced by western propaganda, which I define as media being produced by the UK/Israel/France/Germany/USA and their junior affiliates, Poland, Italy, Spain etc.

Look at the information we know for sure...

Iran used to give loans in the Billions to Germany, USA, UK, France during Shahs time. Iran could not spend the wealth it was creating quickly enough, it was cash rich.

Those same countries, western democracies, portrayed the shah a despot, crook, tyrant, megalomaiNIAC, corrupt etc, etc, etc.

So the same Iran and Shah they could not hold back economically or rob, by using manipulation, deceit and coercion they destroyed. The style of effective Propaganda was specifically designed for Iranians and their village gossip way of dealing with life.

What is clear is the Shah would not sign off on corruption and never accepted a No as far as technology or development for Iranians by any nation.

Today these same countries USA/Germany/France/UK with the IMF give loans/debt to democratic goverments they have can have a big influence on, and their leaders are not called corrupt megalomaniacs, but great countries... what a joke..

Look at the level of debt their democratic governments have incurred.

Greece "$485 Billion Dollars"

Ireland "$1,045 Billion Dollars"

Spain "$1,100 Billion Dollars"

Italy "$1,100 Billion Dollars"

And Iranians want to pursue a DEMOCRATIC future.... what a dirty , even perverse joke in comparison to what Ira was honestly during the time of the late shah, today we see arguments are won with out right lies. So you don't have the ability to choose based on the truth. You can only choose based on deceit and manipulation. Is that what you think will serve Iranians?

It is no wonder these countries and their leaders are not called despotic tyranies, even when we know they participated in secret torture chambers by of the CIA. Is this the type of free worlds mass media we want for Iran? These periferal countries do not serve their own people but serve the USA/Germany/France/UK, all nuclear super powers. During the Shahs time Iran was poised to overtake all of these countries except for the USA economically speaking.

No wonder the USA and it's partners wanted the IRI for Iran and now lead Iranians to seeking more democracy for IRAN. Democracy is code for control and foreign domination. As Russia discovered under Yeltsin, which is why the russian secret service brought Putin and now yet again the so called free world media is used to attack putin "saying he is corrupt" but the truth is the exact opposite as we can see from russia's success.

Iranians used to chant Freedom, Independence, Islamic Republic, clearly we were independent and free, it was those things that the west stole from us by removing the Shah at our own deceived hands. It was exactly because we had a king that was involved in politics upto the neck that Iran did not suffer the same fate as all these countries and Iran under the shah served Iranians and was independent. It was progressing because he served honestly and without corruption, unfortunately the Iranian people due to disingenuous reporting on issues of human rights stopped trusting the Shah.

My view based on what information I have is Iran needs a Shah that should have his hands in politics and that we leave Irans politics to polticians seeking power at our own peril. That is assuming we are serious on how to make Iran a Champion leading country, like it was under the Shah.

Those that want a multi-party system without an arbitror like the Shah are talikng based on what information. Shouldn't responsible people look at both sides of the equation, not just what it is that Iranians say they want, but also looking at what that desire will create in reality. Isn't it dangerous to ignore key information, regarding what a democracy will really give birth to in Iran.

I strongly doubt a parliamentary democracy like the UK will create a leading country, a winning country, a country rich in splendour like Iran was in the late 60's and early 70's, especially because that is the easiest way to be dominated, when strong democratic institutions do not exist. I feel people don't have information and are influenced by propaganda make stupid decisions. Sadly they put their lives behind those decisions. But I'd like other knowledge and expertise on this subject of restoring freedom and justice for Iranians.

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Reply by Radius

Amir, I dont care about the impressiv economical figures that you present here. Whatever you wrote about national income and debts and loans, thats not the problem of the people of Iran. I guess in this matter, they are doing much better than a lot of other countries in the middle east.

What the people of Iran deserve, and what is all the political unrest about at the moment is freedom in the first instance. The green movement is mainly based on the young generation, and their concern is not material wellfare. If this would be the main issue, You would rather see the older generation on the streets. 

What frustrates the young and innovative generation in Iran is the political and ideological oppression, that is absolutely toxic to creativity. It destroys their dreams. Don"t compare Iran (under Shah or under the ajatollahs) with debt-loaden european countries. Compare it with Israel, for instance. Israel is not really rich, and the material living standard might be much lower than for instance in Saudi Arabia or some european countries.  But the gouvernment in Israel knows exactly that the best thing you can give to your people and to make them loyal is freedom of thoughts and ideas. People in Israel dont think their country is heaven on earth, but it allows them to work on their dreams, some of them are gorgious, other might be funny, others might be silly. But Israel can beat every other nation in the world by its creativity output (scientific, technological, cultural). But you can get this only if you give freedom to the people. This is why totalitarian regimes fall behind sooner or later in science and technology. Ask why all our new technologies, GSM, GPS, internet, satellites, biotech, modern transportation, chemistry, pharmceuticals were invited in "free countries" like the europeans, US, Japan ? I tell you there is nothing genetically, the people from arab countries or china or russia are not less intelligent or innovative. But to rise this creative potential, they had to leave their country and try it in US or europe. There is also no link between a high living standard and creativity, otherwise we would see most of high tech coming from countries like SA, Emirates, Singapoor, Lichtenstein or Monacco. 

Creativity, which on the long term is the only thing bringing happiness and satisfaction to man, needs free spirits in an open world.

And this is why (thanks god) totalitarian regimes only seem to be made for eternity, but never survive for very long. If you keep your people in mental custody, their loyality will erode quickly.

And therefor what I wish to the Iranian people after the IRI went to the scrap-yard of History is not the type of material wealth and intellectual degradation like in SA or Emirates, but I wish them a liberation of ideas and creativity. Material wealth will come automatically with it.

And whether a "secular monarchy" is more likely to guarantee this (as in UK or skandinavia) or a grassroot democracy is more appropriate (like in switzerland) is hard to tell from the outside and depends on tradition and mentallity. I agree with you that western-style democracy can not be taken as a "conditio sine qua non" for a new Iran. I also agree with you that the global power-players should stop trying to exploit Iran for their purposes. They did this for too long time, and what the english and russians and americans considered THEIR Great Game prepared the ground for the unjustice under which the iranian people have to suffer for too long time now.

Radius, that is another point of mine (Amir Parveniz)

I believe that what people really want is FREEDOM and this is what was stolen from Iranians as a result of the revolution, which is why it was such a true pity it occured. If we as Iranians pursue Democracy, then i believe we will lose our ability to have freedom.

Whereas, if we pursue a secular monarchy, the Institution by virtue of what it can accomplish against foreign domination and their exploitation of political parties in 3rd world countries like ours will unlike a democratic govt help people accomplish freedom. Just like it existed and was growing every day during the 1970's with the late Shah.

Consider the Voice of America Show funded by the US goverment, Parazit, which at the begining says Azadi, Edalat, Democracy, Barabari, Jameheyeh madani. I feel that as the US Government tries to popularize the concept of democracy for Iranians a people with no institutions for it, their aim is not to help us restore freedom for Iranians. Which is a totally different subject. The USA already undermined freedom from Iranians once before, when will Iranians learn? They are behind and support muslim fundamentalism.

While I don't agree with alot of what this Journalist Mr Evans has to say, conclusions, I agree that his facts are accurate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpHAe70ohEk . The truth is it has been US foreign policy to maintainand expand fundamentalism, both parties liberals and republicans.

The goal of all Iranians should be freedom and justice first, this is more easily brought about by a sovereign, than groups of politicians attempting to share power.

Monarchy or Parlamentary Democracy (Radius)

Dear Amir Parviz, There is not much to contradict from your last post, I have to admit. My yesterdays comment requesting a free society for the iranian people is perhaps a very long term aim. It is nothing that can be guaranteed from the next morning after the ajatollahs are removed from power. My hope that Iran will face a future in Freedom, with same civil rights for everybody and a prosperous economy is shared by the majority of people here. But at the moment, it is like a dream, and even when the green movement overcomes the IRI regime, it will be a long and stony way to get there. In particular, one has to face the problem that all the supporters of IRI, the Basidj, Revolutionary Guards, Pazdaran, Sepah and all the others who currently benefit from the regime, that they might resist a new liberal society. It is hard to tell what it needs to make them loyal to a new, liberal gouvernment, if they loose all their privileges. In the best case (what I hope) there really might be a peaceful transformation like in post-war germany or the eastern european countries after fall of communism. Here, the former elite lost its influence (theoretically, but in some countries just converted into the new economic players). Ideally, they should face trials, not neccesarrily to punish them, but to clear and document what had happened and what was their function and help them to finding a way into the new society.

In the worst case, the former elite could go in the underground and start an endless fight against the new system. Usually the risk for the later is very high if there is no new identification, just as in Iraq of Afghanistan, where the US-backed Hamid Kazai or el-Maliki are considered puppets of the foreign powers and democracy as we said yesterday just a tool to rule the country from the outside. This is the reason why so many support the Taliban or partisan and sectarian groups there. Nobody respects the new rulers. In particular, if you have a multi-ethnic society with religious and cultural heterogeneity, what is even more pronounced in Iran due to its rich and long history.

There is no way around a strong personality at the top, at least for the first years after the political changes. This personality must be respected by all ethnic groups and must protect minorities and all religious groups equally. And for this I could really follow your idea of a secular monarchy. I agree that a strong Shah would be the best guarantee to unify the country and protect freedom and civil rights for everybody. Otherwise he/she will face again resistance and illoyality from religious leaders, who in Iran like in any other country always believe that they have their own rights and values.

But a modern monarchy simply cannot work like the european courts hundred years ago or the persian empire under Xerxes or Darious, where autocracy was the most efficient form of ruling a country. I think an efficient parlament is essential to give the people the feeling that the new system works in their own interest rather than in the particular interest of a dynasty. I think there are plenty of examples that a constitutionally monarchy as in skandinavian countries or UK or even Marocco can provide a long term stable society with the best ballance between personal freedom, responsibility for the whole country and certain degree of security. This is what I hope for a future Iran as well.